This is what I'm trying to achieve with my novel, Journey to Kyron (as you mention, 'a tale of exploration and discovery, such as space travelers encountering a strange new planet'). Plenty of conflict and human interest in the day-to-day lives of the explorers, but crucially, the reason for the journey is not to escape an ailing Earth, but because the world has become so prosperous that such a journey becomes possible.
One of the many things that makes Babylon 5's epic five-season story so good is the way that we see the various governments fluctuate between freedom and tyranny, such that it explores the causes of both and pretty much always has a good and bad example going at any point in the study.
As an author, the struggle to tone it down is real. I sometimes feel compelled to add dystopian elements to make the setting pop and increase the stakes. Anxieties like "will anybody want to publish/read this?" can drive one to play up the drama.
I'm almost finished with a novel in which there are two (mostly non-dystopian) realities. Their histories diverged for unknown reasons, and one is "us in 2050" and the other is around 150 years behind, tech-wise. (think: dieselpunk).
The mystery is: why?
I've struggled to figure out how dystopian to make each world, because of course one of the questions is, which world would you rather live in? As a technophile, I don't want it to come off as ideological or preachy. And I want to embrace and understand technology wholeheartedly, not just its good parts.
My novel Jove's Chariot (https://a.co/d/7zCEHUC), brightly foretelling a coming airship age, is a case in point. It's set in the relatively near future-- 2046 through 2059-- and the villains (a greedy corporation, an Islamist movement, ignorant public opinion, conspiracy theorists-- are familiar forces in today's world. The heroes aren't (mostly) technologists but power users of a technology-- giant airships-- that isn't all that futuristic but could be built today.
The plot is they offend a multinational company by fixing a fusion power plant that was nationalized, get outlawed, and become "The Flying Republic of Outlaws" for thirteen years. :)
The discovery of invention is one of my favorites! The race to put electricity in homes! So much drama in that story. The race to get a man on the moon in so many space films. Trying to come up with a cure before it’s too late! Even trying to write that code before the big competition! There are so many ways we overcome conflict with invention.
This is so well written. Funny enough, the Marvel franchise comes to mind as a series of stories where the heroes tend to be on the side of technological progress and use their innovative powers to defeat threats to humanity. Even in Age of Ultron, where the villain is an actual rogue AI, part of how the Avengers defeat it is to create another AI that won’t be corrupted.
There are some stories about discovery or invention. They tend to be (a) military related (Oppenheimer, Imitation Game), (b) space related (Hidden Figures, October Sky), or (c) movies about individual inventors with interesting life stories that don't go to theaters (Flash of Genius, Joy)
I think inventing something important should be considered interesting in itself, without having to have some other “human interest” element to the inventor's life story.
In the 1950s, there were tons of heroic inventor movies, especially about medical breakthroughs. I think these aren't as big anymore because there has been so very much progress in medicine that effective treatments for infection (for instance) are just taken as a given fact about the world, not the stuff of drama. Which is a pity.
All of your good examples contain conflict, so the first quoted paragraph seems inappropriately targeted at your otherwise decent argument, which I understand more as the relative presence and potential of conflict within dystopias and utopias, rather than its complete absence.
Is Seveneves really a good opening example for this? Part 1 maybe, overcoming nature with technology, builder ethos etc. but parts 2 and 3 are much more ambiguous/dystopian
For #1, I immediately thought of the 1950s monster movie without a monster, or maybe with a nonliving monster, Monolith Monsters. Plenty of conflict, but not so much between the characters.
For #7, could you please tell us which Star Trek episodes?
I'm not enough of a Trekkie to answer off the top of my head, so I asked Claude:
---
There are quite a few fascinating Star Trek episodes that explore this theme across different series. Let me highlight some notable ones:
From The Original Series:
- "The Cloud Minders" shows a society literally divided between a privileged class living in a floating city and workers forced to mine in harsh conditions below. It's a stark examination of class division and exploitation.
- "A Taste of Armageddon" features two planets conducting a "clean" computerized war where citizens voluntarily walk into disintegration chambers based on casualty calculations - a chilling take on how societies can normalize horrific practices.
From The Next Generation:
- "First Contact" (not the movie, but the episode) shows a world on the verge of warp capability that turns out to have deep xenophobic tendencies, challenging the crew's assumptions about technological progress equating to social progress.
- "The Masterpiece Society" depicts a genetically engineered colony that appears perfect on the surface but is revealed to be rigidly controlled and lacking in personal freedom.
From Deep Space Nine:
- "Past Tense" is particularly striking, showing Earth's own troubled near-future history with social inequality and treatment of the poor in sanctuary districts.
- The Cardassian society, shown throughout the series, is a fascinating example of a technologically advanced civilization that embraces authoritarianism and military rule.
“But you can’t have a story where everyone is happy and everything is perfect! Stories need conflict!”
This very claim implies that in a story with a positive portrayal of technology, everyone must be happy, and there can’t be any problems.
I think this speaks to the general view people have about technology that it will either solve every problem we have, or it will be our downfall—it will lead to a utopia or dystopia. Many people don’t even have a category for “protopia.” To have that category, you necessarily need to draw a line between positive and negative effects of technology, as well as carefully identify what kinds of technology lead to each. We have often struggled to find a coherent way to make this distinction, which is why we’re left with the false dichotomy I described earlier.
This is my first glimpse of the word "protopia", so give me a few moments to categorise it 😊. Do you think it's the same as 'thrutopia'? If not, what's the difference?
I came across this set of distinction definitions (but they didn't mention Thrutopia) :
- The Utopian believes in the future.
- The Eutopian believes in alternate timelines.
- The Protopian believes that alternate timelines can and should be skillfully weaved into a multiplicity of beautiful futures — but that it is not determined that they will be.
I guess the distinctions start to become too esoteric or academic when you keep drilling down and partitioning the subtleties. A good story will remain a good story!
This is what I'm trying to achieve with my novel, Journey to Kyron (as you mention, 'a tale of exploration and discovery, such as space travelers encountering a strange new planet'). Plenty of conflict and human interest in the day-to-day lives of the explorers, but crucially, the reason for the journey is not to escape an ailing Earth, but because the world has become so prosperous that such a journey becomes possible.
Do you have a draft? Sounds interesting!
One of the many things that makes Babylon 5's epic five-season story so good is the way that we see the various governments fluctuate between freedom and tyranny, such that it explores the causes of both and pretty much always has a good and bad example going at any point in the study.
As an author, the struggle to tone it down is real. I sometimes feel compelled to add dystopian elements to make the setting pop and increase the stakes. Anxieties like "will anybody want to publish/read this?" can drive one to play up the drama.
I'm almost finished with a novel in which there are two (mostly non-dystopian) realities. Their histories diverged for unknown reasons, and one is "us in 2050" and the other is around 150 years behind, tech-wise. (think: dieselpunk).
The mystery is: why?
I've struggled to figure out how dystopian to make each world, because of course one of the questions is, which world would you rather live in? As a technophile, I don't want it to come off as ideological or preachy. And I want to embrace and understand technology wholeheartedly, not just its good parts.
My novel Jove's Chariot (https://a.co/d/7zCEHUC), brightly foretelling a coming airship age, is a case in point. It's set in the relatively near future-- 2046 through 2059-- and the villains (a greedy corporation, an Islamist movement, ignorant public opinion, conspiracy theorists-- are familiar forces in today's world. The heroes aren't (mostly) technologists but power users of a technology-- giant airships-- that isn't all that futuristic but could be built today.
The plot is they offend a multinational company by fixing a fusion power plant that was nationalized, get outlawed, and become "The Flying Republic of Outlaws" for thirteen years. :)
The discovery of invention is one of my favorites! The race to put electricity in homes! So much drama in that story. The race to get a man on the moon in so many space films. Trying to come up with a cure before it’s too late! Even trying to write that code before the big competition! There are so many ways we overcome conflict with invention.
Refreshing and inspiring, thank you!
This is so well written. Funny enough, the Marvel franchise comes to mind as a series of stories where the heroes tend to be on the side of technological progress and use their innovative powers to defeat threats to humanity. Even in Age of Ultron, where the villain is an actual rogue AI, part of how the Avengers defeat it is to create another AI that won’t be corrupted.
Yup, and I mentioned Thanos as a great Malthusian villain.
There are some stories about discovery or invention. They tend to be (a) military related (Oppenheimer, Imitation Game), (b) space related (Hidden Figures, October Sky), or (c) movies about individual inventors with interesting life stories that don't go to theaters (Flash of Genius, Joy)
I think inventing something important should be considered interesting in itself, without having to have some other “human interest” element to the inventor's life story.
In the 1950s, there were tons of heroic inventor movies, especially about medical breakthroughs. I think these aren't as big anymore because there has been so very much progress in medicine that effective treatments for infection (for instance) are just taken as a given fact about the world, not the stuff of drama. Which is a pity.
All of your good examples contain conflict, so the first quoted paragraph seems inappropriately targeted at your otherwise decent argument, which I understand more as the relative presence and potential of conflict within dystopias and utopias, rather than its complete absence.
A good dramatic biopic for # 2 would be the invention of insulin at novo and nordisk + their eventual merger!
Is Seveneves really a good opening example for this? Part 1 maybe, overcoming nature with technology, builder ethos etc. but parts 2 and 3 are much more ambiguous/dystopian
For #1, I immediately thought of the 1950s monster movie without a monster, or maybe with a nonliving monster, Monolith Monsters. Plenty of conflict, but not so much between the characters.
For #7, could you please tell us which Star Trek episodes?
I'm not enough of a Trekkie to answer off the top of my head, so I asked Claude:
---
There are quite a few fascinating Star Trek episodes that explore this theme across different series. Let me highlight some notable ones:
From The Original Series:
- "The Cloud Minders" shows a society literally divided between a privileged class living in a floating city and workers forced to mine in harsh conditions below. It's a stark examination of class division and exploitation.
- "A Taste of Armageddon" features two planets conducting a "clean" computerized war where citizens voluntarily walk into disintegration chambers based on casualty calculations - a chilling take on how societies can normalize horrific practices.
From The Next Generation:
- "First Contact" (not the movie, but the episode) shows a world on the verge of warp capability that turns out to have deep xenophobic tendencies, challenging the crew's assumptions about technological progress equating to social progress.
- "The Masterpiece Society" depicts a genetically engineered colony that appears perfect on the surface but is revealed to be rigidly controlled and lacking in personal freedom.
From Deep Space Nine:
- "Past Tense" is particularly striking, showing Earth's own troubled near-future history with social inequality and treatment of the poor in sanctuary districts.
- The Cardassian society, shown throughout the series, is a fascinating example of a technologically advanced civilization that embraces authoritarianism and military rule.
I think you should follow this up with particular pieces of media that you think do this well! I would join such a book club!
See Freefall Comic at freefall.purrsia.com for plenty of non-dystopian conflict.
“But you can’t have a story where everyone is happy and everything is perfect! Stories need conflict!”
This very claim implies that in a story with a positive portrayal of technology, everyone must be happy, and there can’t be any problems.
I think this speaks to the general view people have about technology that it will either solve every problem we have, or it will be our downfall—it will lead to a utopia or dystopia. Many people don’t even have a category for “protopia.” To have that category, you necessarily need to draw a line between positive and negative effects of technology, as well as carefully identify what kinds of technology lead to each. We have often struggled to find a coherent way to make this distinction, which is why we’re left with the false dichotomy I described earlier.
This is my first glimpse of the word "protopia", so give me a few moments to categorise it 😊. Do you think it's the same as 'thrutopia'? If not, what's the difference?
I think this is where the term came from: https://kk.org/thetechnium/protopia/
I came across this set of distinction definitions (but they didn't mention Thrutopia) :
- The Utopian believes in the future.
- The Eutopian believes in alternate timelines.
- The Protopian believes that alternate timelines can and should be skillfully weaved into a multiplicity of beautiful futures — but that it is not determined that they will be.
I guess the distinctions start to become too esoteric or academic when you keep drilling down and partitioning the subtleties. A good story will remain a good story!
Korolev and von Braun biopics would also go really hard!
https://www.palladiummag.com/2024/10/25/the-genius-who-launched-the-first-space-program/